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 Post subject: 1080p vs 2160P
PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 4:45 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 10:15 am
Posts: 33
Okay, I reluctantly purchased the LG C7 due to HDR. Reluctant because I read 4K is kind of a scam given the screen has to be huge for our eyes to tell the difference between 2160p and 1080p. However, with HDR, from my reading, the prospects are there for a noticeable difference within normal sized 50-70" screens. It is my impression HDR provides more information between contrasts and therefore makes it easier to justify the tv change.

To start: Thank you to the contributors here and, of course, Mike is awesome, because with your help I have the NS50, lucky, and felt more confident purchasing a few 4K disks.

Unfortunately even with all the information and I read much of it, I somehow think I messed up this simple process because the two I have ripped, for backup, so far, Blade Runner Final Cut and Mad Max Fury Road present more imperfections than 1080p same machine, same connections, and TV. How can that be?

For those that have backed-up Fury Road, tell me if you see the imperfections from the first scene upper right in the clouds just as Max drives off--looks kind of washed out. There are no issues with 1080p Fury Road in that same upper corner. 4K Blade Runner Final Cut the first scene in which the air-mobile is coming at the viewer with all the explosions below presents less quality within that landscape than 1080p. It is not great with 1080p, kind of a blur washed out or whatever it is called, but it is less washed out than 2160p.

additionally, my C7, irritatingly, does not automatically recognize HDR when playing the videos with Plex media player (pmp), vlc, or mpv. Actually, I must note that the imperfections I mentioned happen across the three players tried pmp, mpv and vlc. I have a ps4, why no uhd player in the pro is beyond me, but with assassin's creed origins the C7 promptly recognizes HDR.

So in short, I have two successful 4k HDR videos backed-up with the subsequent size increase and they appear worse than 1080p. If this issue is answered on this site, my apologies for missing it. Please point me to the answering thread. Otherwise, what have I done or what could be wrong with my setup to have more resolution and have it look worse?

Has anyone else had trouble with Star Trek (2009) recognized with NS50? I see several keys for the movie, so it works for somebody. I have yet to get it recognized, no disc, by makemkv. I wonder if it the disc or should I try the asus.

Thank you.


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 Post subject: Re: 1080p vs 2160P
PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 6:20 pm 
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Location: Canada
From the UHD FAQ, re: your Star Trek disc: There are multiple versions of UHDs for each movie (countries, retailers, rentals) and there may be multiple volume keys for even the same version, so it's possible that the volume key you have isn't the correct one for your particular disc.

The 4K UHD format is honestly a bit of a mess right now in my opinion. You have to really do your research to find out which discs are going to look fantastic. You have different studios doing different things. Sony's UHDs are often praised (heck, they were well ahead of the game by releasing new versions of Blu-rays that were created from new 4K masters) while UHDs from other studios (*cough* Batman Begins *cough*) are back to questionable practices such as DNR!

Perhaps the biggest consideration I have when choosing UHDs to start my collection is the fact that more UHDs than not are actually not 4K masters. They are upscaled from 2K masters because the film was finished with a 2K DI (digital intermediate), usually due to digital effects work being only done at 2K. So the main benefit of these upscaled from 2K UHDs is not resolution but rather WCG, HDR and hopefully being comparatively less compressed than Blu-ray.

Blade Runner Final Cut, and the upcoming 2049 for that matter, are both native 4K. Mad Max Fury Road, however, is a 2K upscale.

I suspect this info doesn't really answer your question though. What you need is someone else who has these discs to help you compare. In theory, no UHD should look worse than a Blu-ray. I'll be picking up my order of Blade Runner next week. I won't be getting Mad Max Fury Road.


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 Post subject: Re: 1080p vs 2160P
PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 7:57 am 
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It's worth noting that PMP and mpv don't currently passthrough HDR information, as far as I'm aware.


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 Post subject: Re: 1080p vs 2160P
PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 3:44 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 10:15 am
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I appreciate the support and candor. Thank you.

I know there are several keys to ST (2009), but I am unable to get it recognized. I cannot even get it to the point makemkv recognizes the disc to create a dump. I asked to see if anyone else with the LG NS50 had the same experience, with this video, as I ponder another drive like the asus some mentioned.

I know this is early days, so I am not complaining about anything mike or others have done. I question 4k. After reading this, "Blade Runner Final Cut, and the upcoming 2049 for that matter, are both native 4K,..." I am back to not sold on 4k providing enough of a difference for us to notice. The last thing I expected from 2160p is that it look worse for both movies I have backed-up. It should look at least as good as 1080p, right?! I must have something wrong, and the note about the players has been heeded. I tried three, so I continue to work that aspect. I have yet to get a 4k backup recognized with HDR, so some of the color range I must be missing. But, does that explain the washout of the video clarity I see in the places noted above? I say no and so I continue to investigate what I could have done wrong.

Again, great support. Thank you for the help, and Thank you to Mike and others for the work they do. As a Tangent, I watched Fury Road again last night sparked by all the time I spent with the 4k mess; the movie is intense. If you have not seen it, there are worse ways to spend 2hrs. All vehicles were real and functioned, there is a 20min extra about the vehicles. That alone is worth a look. Sorry for the movie plug....


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 Post subject: Re: 1080p vs 2160P
PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 4:06 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2011 11:21 pm
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There was a note made in the main UHD drive topic that you have to start the backup quickly; if the drive spins down after loading the disk, it might not spin up again for MakeMKV.

I only have 1 4K disk. For my testing, I started MakeMKV, and inserted the disk into the NS50 drive. As soon as MakeMKV said it was loaded (the icon stopped spinning), I clicked "backup", unchecked "decrypt", and then started it. It ran to the finish (less than an hour).

Once that was done, I went looking for the leaked key, and worked from the backup, rather than the disk.

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How to aid in finding the answer to your problem: http://www.makemkv.com/faq/item/8


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 Post subject: Re: 1080p vs 2160P
PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 4:41 pm 
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Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2017 11:51 pm
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Yes, your HDR backups will look like washed out crap when your TV doesn't recognize that HDR content is being presented to it. I would recommend getting an Nvidia Shield with the Kodi or SPMC apps to properly play back your 4k HDR content.

Recommended settings for the Shield and SPMC/Kodi are:
https://github.com/koying/SPMC/wiki/Rec ... nd-UHD-(4K)-TVs-with-4K-GUI


You can also find nice HDR test samples here:
http://4kmedia.org/


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 Post subject: Re: 1080p vs 2160P
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 7:43 pm 
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Woodstock, I backed-up two, as noted, and dumped several other disks provided to mike, so I am familiar with the timing. My NS50 will not recognize ST(2009). I posed my issue in case someone else has tried that video with a ns50 drive. Either it the drive or the disk.

Regarding hdr washing out if hdr not recognized by the tv. why would 2160p wash out because hdr not recognized? you just blasted my understanding of what hdr provides. If you look at fury road that first scene with max standing by the car, I see no difference between 1080p and 2160p. Then he drives off and then the issues noted, upper right. If what I experience is because hdr Not recognized by the c7, wouldn't it be the entire picture washed out, not just in the clouds? I have to see more reasons to start adding more hardware to the puzzle and changing my setup as well. I currently run pmp and pms on the same machine. whatever is causing my issue with 4k, I am Not sold 2160p is enough of a difference on smaller tvs <70." I will try kodi, I once used it, and see if there is a difference.

Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: 1080p vs 2160P
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:26 pm 
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I've got an LG 65B7a. 2160p is good, but does not a represent the same quality jump you get from going 480i to 1080p. From a straight resolution standpoint at normal seating distance, I doubt very few people could tell the difference between a native 4k set and a good 1080p set playing the same movie (even if the 4k set was playing the UHD and the 1080 set was playing a standard bluray).

Look at netflix 4k. It looks good, but it's still only about half the bitrate of a standard bluray. HDR/Dolby Vision/HLG/WCG/etc are the ONLY reason to upgrade to 4k, imo, but it is SUCH a good reason! 4k HDR on my OLED makes the best Commercial Cinemas I've been to look silly. If retail stores would focus on the color/contrast aspect of 4k tv's more than the resolution/refresh rates(soap opera effect they like to shove down the consumers throat) they'd sell a Butt ton more 4k TV's and you'd see a lot more 4k HDR content.

I have an Oppo UDP-203 UHD player that I'm basically using as my media server and playback for UHD discs I can't rip yet. I have Emby Server setup on my unRAID server and browse my library via the Emby apps on my iphone/ipad/PC/etc. I then use Emby's built in Play To (DLNA) feature to select a movie and direct play it to my Oppo. This works extremely well! DVD upscaling is fantastic (when the TV's SDR settings and the Oppo's pass-through settings are set correctly). Blurays look every bit as good as they did on my old dedicated HTPC. The UHD's I've ripped play back FLAWLESSLY. You 100% can not distinguish them from the actual physical disc. (embedded subtitles work perfect as well, though you do have to Manually select forced tracks at this time. Hoping Oppo fixes that in a firmware update at some point) Using my setup, I have had ZERO issues getting my B7a to trip the HDR flag when I play an UHD mkv to the Oppo. (can't say the same about Dolby Vision since I don't own any Rippable DV titles yet, but I expect no problems there either).

Long Story Short, Get 4k for the HDR! If you want to rip and play back your UHD's on that TV via your network/streaming box/etc, get hardware that can handle direct playing UHD-HDR mkv's. you couldd probably do it cheaper than the Oppo-203, but the Oppo was really easy to setup and has been, more or less, bulletproof (compared to my HTPC, which was good, but always required a fair amount of constant tweaking to keep working right). Nvidia shield and Kodi would work good as well and have built in (downloadable/dedicated) Emby apps, though I couldn't say whether those apps can handle Direct playing UHD's or not. they might, but I don't know for sure. What I do know is that they won't play actual UHD discs and until UHD's are 100% rippable (like blurays and dvd's) you're still going to want the ability to play discs for a while yet. The Oppo has been a very nicely balanced choice for me so far. Something to consider. ;)


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 Post subject: Re: 1080p vs 2160P
PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:16 pm 
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Loads of advice. Thank you. The nvidia shield has been on my mind but I recall codec issues when first released with their forums abuzz begging for codec pacs even for purchase.

my next step, however, is to upgrade my gpu as I wonder if current has a problem; I know pascal arch is good for passing hdr or at least that is what I read. I would be much happier with this endeavor if I could at least get the c7 to recognize hdr from my htpc. hdr is recognized from a ps4 game, but not my htpc, ridiculous.

Thanks again for the information.


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 Post subject: Re: 1080p vs 2160P
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:16 am 
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makememe wrote:
Loads of advice. Thank you. The nvidia shield has been on my mind but I recall codec issues when first released with their forums abuzz begging for codec pacs even for purchase.

my next step, however, is to upgrade my gpu as I wonder if current has a problem; I know pascal arch is good for passing hdr or at least that is what I read. I would be much happier with this endeavor if I could at least get the c7 to recognize hdr from my htpc. hdr is recognized from a ps4 game, but not my htpc, ridiculous.

Thanks again for the information.


Basically you need a device that can natively playback the HEVC encode with rec.2020 color support and HDR. If not you get a washed out picture with muted color and other anomalies. The Nvidia shield works (I use it) with either Plex or Kodi. The Apple Tv 4k also works if you purchase the Infuse player app. Some have also used their PC to play back their rips but I don't know what software works. A TV can support HDR but it does not have a media player that can process the video as it takes quite a bit of horsepower. I have a Sony TV with AndroidTV and installed kodi. The files will play but they stutter constantly because the CPU is too slow and there is limited hardware acceleration. TVs were made to accept incoming signals which are pre-processed via HDMI or streaming. Decoding the video stream on the fly isn't their thing.


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 Post subject: Re: 1080p vs 2160P
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:22 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2012 4:37 pm
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Low Winter Sun wrote:
Yes, your HDR backups will look like washed out crap when your TV doesn't recognize that HDR content is being presented to it. I would recommend getting an Nvidia Shield with the Kodi or SPMC apps to properly play back your 4k HDR content.

Recommended settings for the Shield and SPMC/Kodi are:
https://github.com/koying/SPMC/wiki/Rec ... nd-UHD-(4K)-TVs-with-4K-GUI


You can also find nice HDR test samples here:
http://4kmedia.org/


so many good options now for 4K+HDR.

I use JRiver which installs madVr+Lav and passes through HDR metadata. the images are beautiful on my set (LG OLED 2016 model).

You can also look at Vero 4K which runs OSMC (open sourced media center based on Kodi - very active community and well supported). I have one of these boxes arriving this week.

Not sure about plex - i have plex but have not tried to play back any 4K+HDR MKVs.

MPC-BE w/madvr and lav works fine (free)

note that anything using madvr and lav are windows only solutions.

i am sure there are many many others.

native 4K is excellent but many movies use 2K in the pipeline; i think of it like the old CD days where some discs were "DAD", digital recording, analog mixing, digital mastering.

HDR and Atmos or DTS:X make 4K worth it in my opinion.


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