DTS-HD MA - Why are MA and Core both selectable ?

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ndjamena
Posts: 830
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 12:23 am

Re: DTS-HD MA - Why are MA and Core both selectable ?

Post by ndjamena » Sat Aug 22, 2015 2:00 am

It's not MakeMKV or the UI's fault. The fault lies in the confusing nature of the way the codecs themselves work. MakeMKV NEEDS to provide a way of offering both a core and it's lossless counterpart for ripping and there's actually no good way of doing it. No matter what it does, it will always be confusing and someone will always get it wrong.

The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence.

Coldblackice
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2015 1:24 am

Re: DTS-HD MA - Why are MA and Core both selectable ?

Post by Coldblackice » Sun Aug 23, 2015 4:39 am

necrosis wrote:Same here. I thought it was required because it was nested.

I fully agree with SiliconKid.
This thread just got LAZARUS'd :)

That being said, I fully agree with SiliconKid -- given that DTS-HD automatically includes core, the MakeMKV layout/option is confusing. I've had to do multiple test configurations and extractions to figure out what it meant with the nested boxes, whether when one box is checked, the other checked, and/or both checked.

Sure, not a huge deal, but in my opinion, it would be helpful if the boxes weren't nested -- instead, have them side-by-side on the same level, and if DTS-HD gets clicked, it automatically checks the DTS core box and also grays it out. This visually implies that the core is automatically included.

I can't imagine any case where someone would need a DTS-HD track and a separate DTS-core track, as it would be redundant for anything that can already read plain DTS. But just my two cents, and nothing I'll get upset about.

MZAdotcom
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2015 5:54 am

Re: DTS-HD MA - Why are MA and Core both selectable ?

Post by MZAdotcom » Wed Mar 02, 2016 2:54 pm

Good lord, this is what I've been looking for!

Have been wanting to post something about this subject for a while now and am so glad I took the time to search for this.

First of all: 100% agree with SiliconKid.

Thank you, SiliconKid, for explaining things so clearly :D .

@joe42 [and the rest]: I don't understand your attitude on this. SiliconKid was making a very valid point and I'm positive there are other people who feel the same. He's not being "presumptuous", or anything else. He clearly explained all the facts regarding the DTS-MA HD standard and it's backward compatibility feature, several times, I might add, yet it was not good enough for you. You don't want to come to an understanding or find a solution, you just want to argue, apparently.

As with most users, my main concerns when backing up a blu-ray disc are 1] quality and 2] space/size. I don't want to compromise on the first part and want THE best possible version of a movie. If a disc has both Dolby TrueHD and DTS-MA HD, I'll keep both, since my AVR [Harman/Kardon AVR 1565] can handle both. The second part of space/size, I'm more open about, but still want to minimize the size as much as possible. Now, having said that, why would anyone [read: vast majority] want both the DTS-MA HD and DTS?!? That's all SiliconKid is saying.

I totally agree that the MakeMKV GUI should NOT show those 2 tracks as nested. I'm glad I found out the difference between the 2 audio tracks in question and this thread sooner rather than later because I'm at the relative start of my blu-ray collection backup scheme.

That's my two cents on all this. Love MakeMKV; paid my license fee years ago and it has been worth every penny. Hands down the best product for backing up your blu-ray collection. I always recommend it to others.

Cheers.
Last edited by MZAdotcom on Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:46 am, edited 2 times in total.
@HTPC: Intel NUC HTPC [BOXDN2820FYKH0] | Plextor 128GB SIII SSD | G.SKILL 8GB DDR3 1333 RAM | Win 10 Pro | SAMSUNG 55" LED HDTV | Harman/Kardon 5.1 AV Receiver [AVR 1565] | Dolby TrueHD | DTS-MA HD | Polk Audio 5.1 Home Theater System w/10" SW

GollyJer
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2016 1:44 am

Re: DTS-HD MA - Why are MA and Core both selectable ?

Post by GollyJer » Mon Apr 18, 2016 1:56 am

I know this is an old thread, but would like to thank everyone for digging into this issue.

My main concern is the same as MZAdotcom...
MZAdotcom wrote:As with most users, my main concerns when backing up a blu-ray disc are 1] quality and 2] space/size. I don't want to compromise on the first part and want THE best possible version of a movie. If a disc has both Dolby TrueHD and DTS-MA HD, I'll keep both, since my AVR [Harman/Kardon AVR 1565] can handle both. The second part of space/size, I'm more open about, but still want to minimize the size as much as possible. Now, having said that, why would anyone [read: vast majority] want both the DTS-MA HD and DTS-MA?!? That's all SiliconKid is saying.
When I back up a disk I want to make it as high quality and compatible as possible. Size isn't the first consideration but who wants to waist space. :-)

Using the information in this thread I've come up with an Advanced Settings string that generally selects all the correct items. And if it doesn't, it takes far less clicking to fix than the default string.

Code: Select all

-sel:all,+sel:(subtitle&(favlang)),+sel:(lossless&(favlang)),+sel:(havelossless&(!core)&(favlang)),=1:lossless,=2:lossy
Image

Hopefully this helps others.

CountryBumkin
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2014 6:03 pm

Re: DTS-HD MA - Why are MA and Core both selectable ?

Post by CountryBumkin » Mon Apr 18, 2016 3:36 pm

NodNarb012 wrote:You only need to check the DTS-HD stream; it will automatically take the DTS core and DTS-HD extension to give you the full DTS-HD experience you're after.

I have tested this; my PopcornHour C-200 plays it as DTS-HD while my WDTV Live extracts and plays the DTS core since it doesn't support DTS-HD.

If you check both boxes, the first audio track will be the full DTS-HD core+extension and the second track will be just the DTS core. As long as all of your devices can playback the full DTS-HD track or at least extract the DTS core from that same track, then there is no reason to select the box for the DTS core.
So if you want to make a rip that is compatible with all players (i.e. the ones that can't play DTS-HD) you should check both boxes.
Other than wasted space - it doesn't sound like there is any downside to checking both boxes.

GollyJer
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2016 1:44 am

Re: DTS-HD MA - Why are MA and Core both selectable ?

Post by GollyJer » Mon Apr 18, 2016 3:59 pm

CountryBumkin wrote:
NodNarb012 wrote:You only need to check the DTS-HD stream; it will automatically take the DTS core and DTS-HD extension to give you the full DTS-HD experience you're after.

I have tested this; my PopcornHour C-200 plays it as DTS-HD while my WDTV Live extracts and plays the DTS core since it doesn't support DTS-HD.

If you check both boxes, the first audio track will be the full DTS-HD core+extension and the second track will be just the DTS core. As long as all of your devices can playback the full DTS-HD track or at least extract the DTS core from that same track, then there is no reason to select the box for the DTS core.
So if you want to make a rip that is compatible with all players (i.e. the ones that can't play DTS-HD) you should check both boxes.
Other than wasted space - it doesn't sound like there is any downside to checking both boxes.
This is so confusing... but if you read what you quoted you'll see there is no need to select the child branch of the DTS-HD stream. "You only need to check the DTS-HD stream". The core (non-hd) stream is included if the lossloss format is DTS-HD. This is not the case for PCM or DolbyTrueHD.

The basic rule I follow; and what the settings string I posted above does is...
If DTS-HD, only select the DTS-HD stream and leave all other audio checkboxes empty including the child/branch checkbox. Full stop.
If PCM or DolbyTrueHD, include a 2nd lossy, matrix, non-HD (however you want to reference it) audio stream. This can be the child checkbox if it is the only lossy stream available.

Knocks
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2015 12:58 pm

Re: DTS-HD MA - Why are MA and Core both selectable ?

Post by Knocks » Fri Aug 02, 2019 3:31 am

Hello from 2019

The issue is still very relevant. A lot of posters in this thread are assuming that everyone rips Blu-Rays for single-scenario playback only and that the ripper is not willing to sacrifice a little hard drive space for more flexibility in the future. That is not always the case.

Imagine a scenario where you want to back up a Blu-Ray so that you can selectively produce a DTS-HD MA-only file or a DTS Core-only file in the future, as needed. For example, you might be putting the larger file on your server or HTPC and the smaller file on your portable device. So you are spending a little more hard drive space now in order to save space in the future.

Yes, we know that the DTS-HD MA track contains the Core track. But once you rip out the Core track at the time of ripping, you can no longer produce Core-only files in the future. That's why both need to be selectable and rippable, together or separately.

Grauhaar
Posts: 279
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2016 3:46 pm

Re: DTS-HD MA - Why are MA and Core both selectable ?

Post by Grauhaar » Fri Aug 02, 2019 6:31 am

Knocks wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 3:31 am
But once you rip out the Core track at the time of ripping, you can no longer produce Core-only files in the future.
The DTS Core is the base for DTS MA extention, so the Core part is always available and can be extracted later from an DTS MA track with different tools.

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