Manufacturing Defects as Protection?

Please post here for issues related to UHD discs
captain0999
Posts: 3
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:55 pm

Manufacturing Defects as Protection?

Post by captain0999 » Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:17 pm

Ok, I know the mere suggestion may cause some folks to call me an idiot.. :roll: I will post here anyway as I think there's something fishy.

First, makemkv is fabulous, has allowed me to backup many of my favorite movies. The addition of LibreDrive mode to allow UHD friendly drives to back up those discs is tremendous.

My problem is that a handful of UHD discs distributed my a company who's name sounds like `dis knee` experience read errors during the back up process around the same time. Recording errors similar to :

Code: Select all

Error 'Scsi error - HARDWARE ERROR:TIMEOUT ON LOGICAL UNIT' occurred while reading '/BDMV/STREAM/00055.m2ts' at offset '42156883968'
This occurs on discs fresh out of the packaging on both a LG WH16NS40 and Asus BW-16D1HT drives. I think it's an odd co-incidence that these read errors occur more with discs from this one studio. It happens enough to make me wonder if the errors are intentional.

Is there any option to skip part of the stream if there's a read-error, perhaps a configurable setting that could be adjusted to bypass defects?

Woodstock
Posts: 6589
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2011 11:21 pm

Re: Manufacturing Defects as Protection?

Post by Woodstock » Sun Sep 15, 2019 2:14 am

Deliberate defects have been a form of "copy protection" since the days of CDs, which expanded with DVDs to include deliberate unreadable sections of the disk that a copy, done to a recordable disk, would not have. It proved to be rather useless in preventing copying, once the video playback was no longer dependent upon DVD player firmware.

Lionsgate uses a form of this by creating play lists that access parts of the disk that have no data; It can be seen as seek errors on some disks.

Having ripped a fair number of Disney disks, I have not seen them use such a scheme. Disney is actually one of the more friendly companies as far as copy protection.

The hardware error you're seeing usually only happens with USB-powered drives that are spinning faster than their power allows. When it happens on a SATA drive, the issue is usually that the drive has encountered a read error, and is trying EXTRA HARD to recover it... So much so, that the operating system sees no response, and times out while waiting.

The "working theory" I have on this, based on information Mike mentioned a couple of years ago about some drives that won't report errors if they can "mostly" read a sector, is that the disk has a "soft error". The drive cannot verify the read of the sector, but it does get data, so it keeps attempting the read. During this attempt, it stops responding to the operating system, which times out the request.

For the most part, cleaning the disk will be enough to get around it. Anything that disturbs the focus of the laser will cause issues, and there are a lot of things that can do that. It's why I don't let ANYONE handle a disk before it gets ripped, and even "clean, perfect, right out of the sealed package" disks can have errors like this.
How to aid in finding the answer to your problem: https://www.makemkv.com/faq/item/8

jonghotti
Posts: 586
Joined: Tue May 01, 2018 7:04 pm
Location: Earth

Re: Manufacturing Defects as Protection?

Post by jonghotti » Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:55 pm

That's a damn fine post Woodstock. Good stuff. Thank you!

jonghotti
Posts: 586
Joined: Tue May 01, 2018 7:04 pm
Location: Earth

Re: Manufacturing Defects as Protection?

Post by jonghotti » Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:59 pm

captain0999 wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:17 pm
Ok, I know the mere suggestion may cause some folks to call me an idiot.. :roll: I will post here anyway as I think there's something fishy.

First, makemkv is fabulous, has allowed me to backup many of my favorite movies. The addition of LibreDrive mode to allow UHD friendly drives to back up those discs is tremendous.

My problem is that a handful of UHD discs distributed my a company who's name sounds like `dis knee` experience read errors during the back up process around the same time. Recording errors similar to :

Code: Select all

Error 'Scsi error - HARDWARE ERROR:TIMEOUT ON LOGICAL UNIT' occurred while reading '/BDMV/STREAM/00055.m2ts' at offset '42156883968'
This occurs on discs fresh out of the packaging on both a LG WH16NS40 and Asus BW-16D1HT drives. I think it's an odd co-incidence that these read errors occur more with discs from this one studio. It happens enough to make me wonder if the errors are intentional.

Is there any option to skip part of the stream if there's a read-error, perhaps a configurable setting that could be adjusted to bypass defects?
Definitely not an idiotic post. I happen to agree with you. Of course that could make us both idiots, but there is strength in numbers :)

handcraftedbits
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2018 6:03 pm

Re: Manufacturing Defects as Protection?

Post by handcraftedbits » Tue Sep 17, 2019 8:27 pm

I've gotta ask, are the discs you're reading by chance some of the recently-released Pixar movies that feature a UHD disc stacked on top of the BD bonus features disc?

Because while only in rare instances have I had issues, in the case of Finding Nemo and Finding Dory, right out of the box the two UHDs had very visible scratches because of, I assume, the discs being stacked. Naturally those scratches ruined any hopes of ripping the discs successfully.

Coopervid
Posts: 47
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:32 pm

Re: Manufacturing Defects as Protection?

Post by Coopervid » Tue Sep 17, 2019 9:08 pm

As woodstock outlined:

Even if an UHD disc seems to be prestine - there might be some substances on the surface that prevents or makes it difficult reading the disc.
In such cases i wash the disc with liquid soap and hot water. If afterwards reading is still difficult (data rates are slow) I add an additional cleaning using alcohol. Pick your favorite whiskey to add the right flavor to the movie type :P . Just kidding concerning the type of alcohol. Isopropanol will just work fine. The cleaner the better.

Woodstock
Posts: 6589
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2011 11:21 pm

Re: Manufacturing Defects as Protection?

Post by Woodstock » Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:27 pm

I receive a LOT of multi-disk packages. I always dread when they rattle, because that means the little plastic "nubs" that the disks hang from has "lost structural integrity", allowing disks to move around. Worst case one, which I didn't return because it was the last one available, was a set of Magical Knight Rayearth DVDs, which seems to have been RUN OVER, crushing the case, just missing the disks themselves, and the overall box limited their further movement.

Fortunately, THOSE were DVDs, the scratches weren't too bad, and they worked when I ripped them in a (red laser) DVD reader. Some of them would not rip in a Bluray drive. And also, those defects were not deliberately added at the factory. :)

The chemical film is the most insidious villain. I tried to get a picture of it a few times, but, like vampires, it doesn't show up in photographs (at least not those taken with an auto-focus lens that decides to focus on the reflected background, instead of the surface of the disk, as soon as you press the shutter button). It becomes obvious if you take a damp, soft cloth (as described elsewhere) and lightly wipe from the hub to the outside. It shows up as a shiny line surrounded by not-quite-so-shiny disk, as you tilt it back and forth.
How to aid in finding the answer to your problem: https://www.makemkv.com/faq/item/8

captain0999
Posts: 3
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:55 pm

Re: Manufacturing Defects as Protection?

Post by captain0999 » Sun Sep 29, 2019 11:26 pm

handcraftedbits wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 8:27 pm
I've gotta ask, are the discs you're reading by chance some of the recently-released Pixar movies that feature a UHD disc stacked on top of the BD bonus features disc?

Because while only in rare instances have I had issues, in the case of Finding Nemo and Finding Dory, right out of the box the two UHDs had very visible scratches because of, I assume, the discs being stacked. Naturally those scratches ruined any hopes of ripping the discs successfully.
Nope, the movies in question are Avengers End Game, Captain Marvel, and Thor Ragnorok. All 3 purchased in-store from best buy. None of them are steal book editions though.

captain0999
Posts: 3
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:55 pm

Re: Manufacturing Defects as Protection?

Post by captain0999 » Sun Sep 29, 2019 11:30 pm

Coopervid wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 9:08 pm
As woodstock outlined:

Even if an UHD disc seems to be prestine - there might be some substances on the surface that prevents or makes it difficult reading the disc.
In such cases i wash the disc with liquid soap and hot water. If afterwards reading is still difficult (data rates are slow) I add an additional cleaning using alcohol. Pick your favorite whiskey to add the right flavor to the movie type :P . Just kidding concerning the type of alcohol. Isopropanol will just work fine. The cleaner the better.
Re cleaning disc's, I've always used Isopropyl alcohol, but this time around, I tried using Zeiss Lense cleaner for glasses, still no luck.

rui-no-onna
Posts: 40
Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2019 8:50 am

Re: Manufacturing Defects as Protection?

Post by rui-no-onna » Mon Sep 30, 2019 6:26 am

captain0999 wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 11:26 pm
Nope, the movies in question are Avengers End Game, Captain Marvel, and Thor Ragnorok. All 3 purchased in-store from best buy. None of them are steal book editions though.
I've been able to rip all three of those movies with MakeMKV (WH14NS40 with NS60 1.00 firmware). Captain Marvel and Thor: Ragnarok were just regular copies from Best Buy and Avengers: Endgame Digipak from Target.

I usually do a protected ISO rip via ImgBurn (ignore read errors) before running the ISO through MakeMKV. That way, it's much faster in case I made a boo-boo the first time selecting playlists and tracks.

1wayjonny
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:03 am

Re: Manufacturing Defects as Protection?

Post by 1wayjonny » Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:46 pm

Made a recent post where I bought three brand new drives and tested this out like crazy. esp after the last Pixar batch.

I am starting to think that this is actually the cases them shelf or grease during the packing, since day one these "Black UHD" cases have had a nasty greasy film you can touch. You can see the streaks of grease, touch it and wipe it off. The cases are extermly cheap when you look back at the Blurays, Xbox etc.

It could explain why it can be wiped off as well.

Woodstock
Posts: 6589
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2011 11:21 pm

Re: Manufacturing Defects as Protection?

Post by Woodstock » Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:42 pm

Another comment about the chemical film: Almost everything I buy is pre-ordered, so I get disks from the first batch, often within a few days of manufacture. On these, the film only seems to be on the packaging.

As disks sit on the shelf, though, the disks accumulate more and more chemicals. I haven't had to clean disks before ripping in quite a while, but I looked at some of the older disks that I'd ripped, and now I can see the marks of the suction cups that picked the disk up. That wasn't visible when I'd ripped them.

So, the longer a title has been released, the more likely you're going to have to clean the disk to rip.
How to aid in finding the answer to your problem: https://www.makemkv.com/faq/item/8

PaulCB
Posts: 58
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:26 am

Re: Manufacturing Defects as Protection?

Post by PaulCB » Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:48 pm

I just had two Endgame discs fail (might have had a 3rd but Amazon raised the price so they only offered me refund, not replacement). There was nothing visible but in my (anecdotal) case I can't image it was intentional mastering errors to thwart rippers as the discs both got hung up on video playback through my xbox one with visual glitches and then having to skip a few seconds (at different spots). Certainly possible that whoever masters Disney's discs has QA issues. But I'd guess it is only a small percentage of people ever return a disc so even if there was notable percentage of errors with Disney discs I doubt we'd hear about it or they would care to make a notable effort to further reduce the issues.

Coopervid
Posts: 47
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:32 pm

Re: Manufacturing Defects as Protection?

Post by Coopervid » Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:44 pm

I just did some testing flashing firmwares and needed to try therefore an original disc. I picked one that I only played once half a year ago and the disc looked prestine. Well, the drive complained about missing bus encryption and the disc could only be read after cleaning with soap and water. Since the cases are made from polypropylene and polyetylene that don't use diluents this still a mystery to me where this "film" on the surface is coming from. But yes, it's there. Maybe even coming somewhere from the disc itself or a releasing agent is used to avoid that the pastic parts are sticking in the tools when molded.

gyrfalcon
Posts: 9
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:23 am

Re: Manufacturing Defects as Protection?

Post by gyrfalcon » Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:28 am

Code: Select all

eMKV v1.14.5 win(x64-release) started
Debug logging enabled, log will be saved as C:\Users\silverstone/MakeMKV_log.txt
Backing up disc into folder "D:/Video/backup/AVENGERS_ENDGAME"
Using LibreDrive mode (v05 id=5E80BBEE7E45)
Loaded content hash table, will verify integrity of M2TS files.
Error 'Scsi error - MEDIUM ERROR:L-EC UNCORRECTABLE ERROR' occurred while reading '/BDMV/STREAM/00055.m2ts' at offset '26841772032'
DEBUG: Code 0 at b':py^]7Z&18OVbAmX>:29397679
DEBUG: Code 0 at b':py^]7Z&18OVbAmX>:121265131
DEBUG: Code 0 at %FzmF+1$0iw-!"WGjc5u:29396920
DEBUG: Code 233 at DcUkgYorp6WlVTNheOECsofu:0
Encountered 8 errors of type 'Read Error' - see http://www.makemkv.com/errors/read/
Backup failed
Avengers Endgame UHD.

Fails in exactly the same spot every time. Disc looks good. Please don't say I have a bad drive...

Edit: It was a bad disc

Disc says 1083350 8L500048U1.1 08E on bottom...can't read the rest.

Just backed up ANNA UHD with no problems.
Last edited by gyrfalcon on Sun Oct 13, 2019 3:46 am, edited 2 times in total.

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