Subtitle and audio track naming

MKV playback, recompression, remuxing, codec packs, players, howtos, etc.
mgutt
Posts: 54
Joined: Sun May 05, 2019 6:38 pm

Subtitle and audio track naming

Post by mgutt » Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:55 pm

After creating the MKV through MakeMKV I ask myself how to name the different subtitles and audio tracks. This is how I do it at the moment:

Subtitles

Regular or {Empty String}
The usual subtitles.

Forced
For forced subtitles. This is the only tag that is supported by Plex

SDH
Subtitles for the deaf and hard-of-hearing.

Comment
Director's or actor's comments.

Lyrics
Song lyrics only

Info
Information and facts, mostly in graphical popups

Example:
2019-06-15 20_49_03.jpg
2019-06-15 20_49_03.jpg (10.09 KiB) Viewed 1250 times


Audio tracks

Mono, Stereo, Surround 5.1, Surround 7.1...
The default values

{default value} Comment
Director's or actor's comments

{default value} Desc
Describing audio for blind or visually impaired people.

Example:
2019-06-15 20_49_10.jpg
2019-06-15 20_49_10.jpg (18.5 KiB) Viewed 1250 times


I wonder why MakeMKV does not add the audio codec to the name like "DTS-HD MA 7.1". Isn't it allowed to choose more specific names or what is the reason for such general names?
Last edited by mgutt on Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:03 am, edited 9 times in total.

Chetwood
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Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 9:16 am

Re: Subtitle and audio track naming

Post by Chetwood » Sun Jun 16, 2019 4:34 am

Since I'm always using the same order

forced
regular
director's comment (if available)

I don't bother to name them at all, same goes for audio.
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Grauhaar
Posts: 279
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2016 3:46 pm

Re: Subtitle and audio track naming

Post by Grauhaar » Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:57 am

Chetwood wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 4:34 am
Since I'm always using the same order
I use the same logic. Very simple, no special naming or whatever.

@mgutt
For what reason do you save the 7.1 and 5.1 and stereo track? Or is the 7.1 the DTS HD Master? If you have an HD Master, there is no need to save the 5.1 Core, because the 5.1 Core is part of the HD Master or in other words, the 5.1 Core is created from the HD Master. Please note, that an DTS HD Master track is very huge, can have more than 4GB and it makes only sense if you have very good equipment to hear the benefit.

mgutt
Posts: 54
Joined: Sun May 05, 2019 6:38 pm

Re: Subtitle and audio track naming

Post by mgutt » Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:37 am

@Grauhaar
Yes. its MA, 5.1 and Stereo:
2019-06-16 11_22_47.jpg
2019-06-16 11_22_47.jpg (20.44 KiB) Viewed 1228 times

Does DTS-HD HR 7.1 or DTS-HD MA 7.1 contain a 5.1 or 7.1 Core? I tried to find that out, but I was not successful. Thats the reason why I did not remove the stereo track by now. If the separate 5.1 track is useless, why is it part of the Blu-Ray?

At the moment I do not have any DTS equipment at all, but I do not know what the future holds :wink:

EDIT:
Yes the core is 5.1 as the eac3to output shows:

Code: Select all

6: DTS Hi-Res, German, 7.1 channels, 2046kbps, 48kHz
   (core: DTS, 5.1 channels, 1509kbps, 48kHz)
   "Surround 7.1"
7: DTS, German, 5.1 channels, 1509kbps, 48kHz
   "Surround 5.1"
8: DTS Master Audio, English, 7.1 channels, 24 bits, 48kHz
   (core: DTS, 5.1 channels, 1509kbps, 48kHz)
   "Surround 7.1"
9: DTS, English, 5.1 channels, 1509kbps, 48kHz
   "Surround 5.1"
As this core is fix and an important part of the 7.1 playback I think it misses the 2 additional surround back channel information. Some people think DTS mixes down from 7.1 to 5.1 as DD does, but as far as I know the DTS core is a fix fallback for backward compatibility. I mean, why having a fixed core if the final result is mixed down anyway? Does not seem logic to me. What do you think?

Grauhaar
Posts: 279
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2016 3:46 pm

Re: Subtitle and audio track naming

Post by Grauhaar » Sun Jun 16, 2019 2:59 pm

mgutt wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:37 am
Does DTS-HD HR 7.1 or DTS-HD MA 7.1 contain a 5.1 or 7.1 Core? I tried to find that out, but I was not successful. Thats the reason why I did not remove the stereo track by now. If the separate 5.1 track is useless, why is it part of the Blu-Ray?
DTS uses a good system. The Core (5.1) is always included. because this is the base for DTS 7.1 or HD tracks. This is implemented as an "extention". If a player has no knowlege about the extention it sees and playes only the 5.1 Core part of an HD track. This means, the DTS 5.1 core is not an extra track on the BD, it is part of the DTS HD track. MakeMKV gives the option to extract the DTS HD and/or the DTS Core part. I use on most BD only the Core part, because the difference ist on most discs minimal and the HD track uses much more space. I use the DTS HD track only on some chosen discs.

mgutt
Posts: 54
Joined: Sun May 05, 2019 6:38 pm

Re: Subtitle and audio track naming

Post by mgutt » Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:13 pm

MakeMKV gives the option to extract the DTS HD and/or the DTS Core part.
Ok, I re-checked the Blu-Ray. You are right. It does not contain an extra 5.1 track. It was exported by me through selecting the core in MakeMKV.
I use on most BD only the Core part
But if you use the 5.1 Core of a 7.1 track you will loose the back surrounds audio! It would be better to extract the 7.1 track and downmix it with an external tool.

Grauhaar
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Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2016 3:46 pm

Re: Subtitle and audio track naming

Post by Grauhaar » Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:11 am

mgutt wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:13 pm
But if you use the 5.1 Core of a 7.1 track you will loose the back surrounds audio! It would be better to extract the 7.1 track and downmix it with an external tool.
Don't miss it, I have only a 5.1 speaker setup. I think the 2 extra channels are not important and the downmix (I hate that) must it place anywhere in the other channels which can work or not.

mgutt
Posts: 54
Joined: Sun May 05, 2019 6:38 pm

Re: Subtitle and audio track naming

Post by mgutt » Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:51 am

Yes, you have only 6 speakers, but think about how the 6 or 8 channel tracks are produced. They use the x channel original cinema audio track and downmix it. I'm sure the back surrounds channels are mixed with the rear surrounds.

But of course, using the core only, you loose only some soft background effects.

Thw0rted
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Joined: Sat Jul 20, 2019 7:08 pm

Re: Subtitle and audio track naming

Post by Thw0rted » Sat Jul 20, 2019 7:15 pm

Does anybody know if there's a way to find out which track is which without checking each one by hand? Maybe a website that indexes these, like cddb but for subs?

Woodstock
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Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2011 11:21 pm

Re: Subtitle and audio track naming

Post by Woodstock » Sat Jul 20, 2019 8:27 pm

Not really. And, even if there were, it doesn't guarantee accuracy. The way the "signature" that such databases rely on is created would have to be decided between all parties, and someone still has to do the manual process for each variant.
How to aid in finding the answer to your problem: https://www.makemkv.com/faq/item/8

mgutt
Posts: 54
Joined: Sun May 05, 2019 6:38 pm

Re: Subtitle and audio track naming

Post by mgutt » Sat Jul 20, 2019 9:14 pm

This won't be easy as you can determine the subs only after your created the mkv and as there are many variants to create the mkv (some people select only one language, others multiple, the next one selects only the DTS core, others all audio tracks, etc.), there is no hash available like the one of the DVD/BR itself.

The only solution would be a sub preview function inside of MakeMKV so we could name the subs before the MKV is created and if this is done, MakeMKV could use this data for an own database. I think this would be a cool idea. Because of that I posted a feature request:
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=19984

Chetwood
Posts: 780
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 9:16 am

Re: Subtitle and audio track naming

Post by Chetwood » Sun Jul 21, 2019 4:30 am

You can determine them by playing the largest m2ts from the BD in VLC and see what stream numbers are the ones you need. That's of course manual work too.
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mgutt
Posts: 54
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Re: Subtitle and audio track naming

Post by mgutt » Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:07 am

@Chetwood
Does this require Java? I have the AACS keys installed, but playing a m2ts file directly does not work (loads and loads and then stops without error).

I have DVDFab Player 5 as well, but it loads the blu-ray as usual. So i have to view the intros, menus, etc before beeing able to load the movie. By that i costs more time, but it would be an option to realize a "MakeMKV cddb" without an inbuilt subtitle preview functionality. I will updated my feature request and split it into two:
- MakeMKV cddb
- Subtitle preview

I would buy such a new version of MakeMKV if such a feature would be released!

Chetwood
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Re: Subtitle and audio track naming

Post by Chetwood » Mon Jul 22, 2019 4:38 am

D'uh. Forgot to mention I copy the entire disks to HDD before ripping them. So when I playback the m2ts it's already been decrypted by MakMKV.
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mgutt
Posts: 54
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Re: Subtitle and audio track naming

Post by mgutt » Mon Jul 22, 2019 7:02 am

Chetwood wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 4:38 am
I copy the entire disks to HDD before ripping them.
Why?

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