auro-3d question

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Ripman
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auro-3d question

Post by Ripman » Fri Jul 08, 2016 2:33 am

I have a new BD and wondered if would be able to rip the following. It has PCM and DTS tracks, and I will be OK with those. The audio track I am asking about is auro-3d. Please see the attached.

I think we don't have support for that type of audio format (yet), so I'll also ask if there is anything particular I should do other than sending created tgz files.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/riy0dmzrligoj ... r.jpg?dl=0

Meister_Proper
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Re: auro-3d question

Post by Meister_Proper » Sun Jul 17, 2016 8:52 pm

Auro 3D should work since it is embedded in the PCM track. If makemkv just copies the track 1:1 which I believe it does, you are fine.

Ripman
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Re: auro-3d question

Post by Ripman » Mon Aug 01, 2016 1:13 am

Thanks for your post.

Here are some drop box links that show what I am seeing in MakeMKV with this particular BD.

I see what you mean - the "Auro 3d" track is the dts 7.1 + lpcm stereo.

Please also notice the DTS-192KHz audio track info I posted in the 2nd screen-shot. If I remux this audio track with MKVToolNix, or process it with Handbrake or ffmpeg, the resultant DTS tracks comes out as 48KHz. There are some screen-shots of this on the last few pages of Doom9-MKVToolNix thread if anyone is interested (last link).


MakeMKV title selection:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/1xfo2lpiyl1vd ... I.JPG?dl=0

MakeMKV audio track info:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/yergus46swpyf ... s.JPG?dl=0

MakeMKV completion log:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/11jein44qqofh ... g.txt?dl=0

p212 doom9/mmg:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=155732&page=212
Last edited by Ripman on Tue Aug 09, 2016 4:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

Ripman
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Re: auro-3d question

Post by Ripman » Mon Aug 08, 2016 4:44 pm

I went back and looked at all of the BD audio rips I processed with MakeMkv, and they all have this same issue: DTS audio tracks with sample rates greater than 48khz (e.g., 96khz, 192khz) get reduced to 48khz sample rates when re-processed/muxed (e.g., handbrake, ffmpeg, tsmuxer, MKVToolnix).

The reason I mux these rips after MakeMkv is to remove the video track bc it's empty and unnecessary. Sometimes I'll re-order audio tracks. I am using MakeMkv 1.10.0 and MKVToolnix 9.3.1.
Last edited by Ripman on Tue Aug 09, 2016 4:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

Ripman
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Re: auro-3d question

Post by Ripman » Tue Aug 09, 2016 12:28 am

I used unix split(1) to create a 25mb sample file. None of the other typical tools could split a sample: handbrake; ffmpeg; tsmuxer; mkvtoolnix.

sample (25mb - opens in MkvToolnix 9.3.1 as dts@192khz):
https://www.dropbox.com/s/lkmm7ddlqy972 ... 1.mkv?dl=1

Ripman
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Re: auro-3d question

Post by Ripman » Tue Aug 09, 2016 9:40 pm

As the previous posts explain, I have had some issues when working with BluRay Audio (BDA) discs.

I tried using MakeMKV with the flac profile, and that gave "thread emulation" errors.

As such, I have run the BDA through MakeMKV in TESTDUMP mode, and the following information may be useful to Mike the Admin. I have also sent an email with the appropriate links. The sample link in the prior post is valid for researching this issue - it was created with MakeMKV 1.10.0 and Unix split(1).

---------------

MakeMKV flac errors / MakeMKV TESTDUMP logs
https://www.dropbox.com/s/f47kpjuwyy60b ... e.zip?dl=1

TESTDUMP - Part I
https://www.dropbox.com/s/rmrkcheled3d0 ... 1.tgz?dl=1

TESTDUMP - Part II
https://www.dropbox.com/s/yxggdy1wu5vii ... 0.tgz?dl=1

mike admin
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Re: auro-3d question

Post by mike admin » Sat Aug 13, 2016 8:08 pm

I do not see any issues with your dumps and/or MakeMKV .

You have 2 types of tracks:
PCM - this can be extracted or transcoded by MakeMKV.
DTS-HD MA - those contain core + HD track. Core track is 48khz 5.1 track, HD extends it to lossless 192khz. If you select HD track, you'll get 192khz. If you select core, you'll get 48khz.

From your logs MakeMKV transcoded everything to FLAC without any issues - the "thread emulation" is a mere harmless warning produced by ffmpeg.

Ripman
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Re: auro-3d question

Post by Ripman » Mon Aug 15, 2016 7:53 pm

mike admin wrote:I do not see any issues with your dumps and/or MakeMKV .

You have 2 types of tracks:
PCM - this can be extracted or transcoded by MakeMKV.
DTS-HD MA - those contain core + HD track. Core track is 48khz 5.1 track, HD extends it to lossless 192khz. If you select HD track, you'll get 192khz. If you select core, you'll get 48khz.

From your logs MakeMKV transcoded everything to FLAC without any issues - the "thread emulation" is a mere harmless warning produced by ffmpeg.
Thanks for responding.

I saw a prior post about "flac thread emulation" with trueHD, so I thought it could be a problem because that's how you advised the last guy.
http://www.makemkv.com/forum2/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=7423

If you are saying, which I think you are, to ignore the flac thread emulation messages, then I can get this done with flac.

You are correct that MakeMkv produces the MKV as expected, and that it has a dts HD track @ 192khz. The log showed this, and I believe you've seen that. Mediainfo also reports MakeMkv dts HD as 192khz.

The problem comes after MakeMkv in that no other program can "process" the dts HD -- the dts HD becomes 48khz with ffmpeg, tsmuxer, hb, and MKVToolnix. The screen shots above show this problem.

I originally opened a github request for MKVToolnix because that's where I would see the problem. But I don't think it's a muxing issue, so I'll get the right info to the right people so this can be understood better.

MagnumXL
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Re: auro-3d question

Post by MagnumXL » Sat Sep 01, 2018 11:50 pm

I'm not sure what BD the Auro3D disc was in question (link is long gone), but I have several Auro3D movies (with a Marantz receiver that decodes Auro3D) and for most of them, it's not an issue. They are embedded inside DTS-Master HD tracks (it's actually PCM in a DTS wrapper) and MakeMKV can extract them and something like Handbrake can re-encode the video for a smaller file and pass the DTS track on (that contains the PCM track that has Auro3D) in it. These work great.

The problem is one movie I have (Red Tails) stores the Auro3D track DIRECTLY in a PCM 24 audio track. There is no wrapper. I extracted the movie using MakeMKV (on a Mac) and even if I just play the MKV file it creates directly with KODI on an NVIDIA Shield, all I get is the base/bed layer 5.1 soundtrack. The Auro3D encoding is not detected. The question is what happened to it? I've played the Blu-Ray directly off an LG UP875 player and it outputs it as multi-channel PCM and the Marantz receiver sees it as "Auro3D/PCM". If I play the MKV file, it just says "PCM". I also tried converting the PCM 24 to FLAC 24 with Handbrake. Nothing.

I can think of only two possibilities. One is that KODI cannot pass the PCM unaltered. This seems unlikely given it passes DTS CDs as WAV files through just fine. The other is that MakeMKV is somehow altering the PCM when it extracts it into a MKV file. It wouldn't take much. I believe the encoding is stored in the least significant bit of the 24-bit PCM file. Any alteration to that code what-so-ever would destroy the encoding. Clearly, MakeMKV does a perfect job with DTS wrapped files, but I don't know about PCM. I'm not sure what else to try. I may simply have to resign myself to playing this movie directly off the disc.

mike admin
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Re: auro-3d question

Post by mike admin » Sun Sep 02, 2018 10:07 pm

MagnumXL wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 11:50 pm
The other is that MakeMKV is somehow altering the PCM when it extracts it into a MKV file. It wouldn't take much. I believe the encoding is stored in the least significant bit of the 24-bit PCM file. Any alteration to that code what-so-ever would destroy the encoding.
Just to clarify, MakeMKV passes PCM as is with no alteration whatsoever.
Try making a decrypted full disc backup with MakeMKV, then demux PCM from m2ts file (tsmuxer or many other tools) and then try such PCM file. Or just try playing decrypted m2ts first.

MagnumXL
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Re: auro-3d question

Post by MagnumXL » Mon Sep 03, 2018 2:22 am

mike admin wrote:
Sun Sep 02, 2018 10:07 pm
MagnumXL wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 11:50 pm
The other is that MakeMKV is somehow altering the PCM when it extracts it into a MKV file. It wouldn't take much. I believe the encoding is stored in the least significant bit of the 24-bit PCM file. Any alteration to that code what-so-ever would destroy the encoding.
Just to clarify, MakeMKV passes PCM as is with no alteration whatsoever.
Try making a decrypted full disc backup with MakeMKV, then demux PCM from m2ts file (tsmuxer or many other tools) and then try such PCM file. Or just try playing decrypted m2ts first.
OK, I did the full disc decrypted backup and ran that directly in KODI. Still no Auro3D detection. I suppose the ultimate proof would be to burn a copy from those files and see if shows up. I have the feeling the problem is KODI. I'm sure they never once thought that an LPCM track would contain an immersive format. They decode to multi-channel and as long as it's in multiple channels, that's probably considered good enough. But I noticed if you select "Fixed" output with a 7.1 config, the INFO button on my Marantz 7010 shows Surround Back channels on the INPUT signal and that disc is 5.1 LPCM. There are no surround back channels, but that proves in that mode it's doing more than just outputting the PCM channels as-is. If I select "Best" output, it does show 5.1, but I still get no Auro3D. It shouldn't be changing the sample rate or bit-rate or anything else, but there sure are a LOT of options to do just that if it doesn't like what it sees for some reason. I'm guessing it's doing SOMETHING on playback that's interfering somehow. I've seen similar issues with DTS CDs and something like the ALAC container.

I've noticed (and brought it up, but they don't care one bit) for a long time now that if I put DTS CDs in an ALAC container (what I used to use with my 1st Gen AppleTV which could play them in DTS just fine that way without Apple even realizing it was doing a thing to aid DTS playback; this changed with iOS AppleTVs as they all resample to 48kHz and so can't play any CD as-is anymore). KODI just plays NOISE with ALAC. They claim they support true ALAC lossless playback, it just isn't 100% so and the DTS file stored within it proves that beyond a doubt because the receiver plays NOISE. It's doing something on output that won't let the receiver see the DTS signal properly. I know the files are GOOD because a 1st Gen AppleTV will play DTS from those files perfectly without even claiming any DTS support what-so-ever. KODI will play DTS CDs from WAV files, but ONLY WAV files. That means about 2x the storage space and no ID Tag support what-so-ever. But since no one there cares about DTS CDs stored in ALAC, no one even looks into it. I just resigned myself to using WAV files in a folder marked as DTS CDs (FireTV can't even play that since it won't do 44.1kHz anymore than a 2nd,3rd,4th or 5th gen AppleTV will. It's only been the CD standard since the early 1980s and no one supports it since they figure 48kHz output only saves them 2 cents per unit or something. I'm amazed Apple is going to support Atmos. They wouldn't even allow AVI files for the past 11 years in iTunes (despite many cameras using that format, etc.), let alone MKV.

bindou
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Re: auro-3d question

Post by bindou » Thu Aug 01, 2019 4:12 am

Hello, this problematic also interests me. I am in the same situation. I would like to read my Auro3D music on Kodi. But I just realized that only the DTS-HD track was present on my Rip.

MRX_BD_07
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Re: auro-3d question

Post by MRX_BD_07 » Thu Aug 08, 2019 6:49 pm

bindou wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 4:12 am
Hello, this problematic also interests me. I am in the same situation. I would like to read my Auro3D music on Kodi. But I just realized that only the DTS-HD track was present on my Rip.
The DTS-HD track is probably containing the Auro3D coding.

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