Choppy Framerate from HD-DVD in MKV at 29.97fps

MKV playback, recompression, remuxing, codec packs, players, howtos, etc.
mike_mgoblue
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Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 4:36 am

Choppy Framerate from HD-DVD in MKV at 29.97fps

Post by mike_mgoblue » Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:32 am

I recently used my Xbox 360 HD-DVD player to convert about 30 HD-DVD movies into MKV files.

The MKV HD-DVD conversions have a frame rate of 29.97.

When the MKV HD-DVD conversions are watched in MPC-HC there is a "noticeable" amount of choppiness and stuttering in the frame rate.

When the MKV HD-DVD conversions are watched in VLC Media Player there is a "significant" amount of severe choppiness and severe stuttering in the frame rate.

When I use Handbrake to convert the HD-DVD movies, the frame rate switches to 23.976 and the file is played perfectly smooth in both MPC-HC and VLC Media Player. The Handbrake settings I use for Frame Rate are "Constant" and "Same As Source."

In comparison, here is what happens when I use my laptop to convert standard DVD movies into MKV files.

The MKV standard DVD conversions have a frame rate of 29.97.

When the MKV standard DVD conversions are watched in MPC-HC at a Frame Rate of 29.97, the movies play smoothly. The only time there is even a slight "stutter" is when scrolling occurs for movie credits at the end of the movie.

When the MKV standard DVD conversions are watched in VLC Media Player at a Frame Rate of 29.97, the movies play smoothly. The only time there is even a slight "stutter" is when scrolling occurs for movie credits at the end of the movie.

When I use Handbrake to convert standard DVD movies, the frame rate either switches to 23.976 or remains at 29.97 depending on the movie, and the file is played perfectly smooth in both MPC-HC and VLC Media Player. If the Frame Rate has changed from 29.97 to 23.976, there has been a slight improvement and there is no longer even a slight "stutter" when scrolling occurs for movie credits at the end of the movie. If the frame rate has remained at 29.97, the smoothness has remained the same - including at the end of the movie when scrolling credits occur.

In other words, standard DVDs play perfectly smoothly at all times regardless of frame rate, format, or media player. In comparison, the HD-DVD conversions suffer from problems at 29.97 frames per second in MKV format, and the problems are far worse in VLC Media Player than they are in MPC-HC.

I have read online that these same types of problems I'm talking about with HD-DVD files also occur with Blu-ray conversions to MKV format. In other words, these problems with a choppy frame rate occur with all HD files - both HD-DVD and Blu-ray.

Can someone please tell me how to correct this problem when the files are converted to MKV format? ... I really do not want to spend the HUGE amount of time converting all those HD files using Handbrake. Space is not an issue, because I have an 8TB Hard Drive. I simply want to quickly convert the HD files using Make MKV. But as of right now it is very annoying that there is such choppiness and stuttering in the frame rates.

All help is appreciated. ... Thank you.

EXAMPLES:

* All HD-DVD movies I have seen so far have a frame rate of 23.976 on the disc; however, MakeMKV converts the files to 29.97 frames per second. Handbrake then converts the MakeMKV files back to 23.976 where they were supposed to be.

* Terminator 2: Ultimate Edition on DVD has a frame rate of 29.97 on the disc. MakeMKV allows this file to remain at 29.97. Handbrake also keeps the file at 29.97. The credits in the movie scroll at the end and are smooth on the disc, smooth when watching the converted file from MKV, and smooth when watching the Handbrake file.

* The Terminator on DVD has a frame rate of 23.976; however, MakeMKV converts the files to 29.97 frames per second. Handbrake then converts the MakeMKV files back to 23.976 where they were supposed to be. The credits in the movie scroll perfectly smoothly on the disc and perfectly smooth on handbrake, but slightly "stutter" in the MakeMKV file that runs at the different frame rate of 29.97.

UPDATE:

I recently converted my first MakeMKV Blu-ray, which is Terminator Genisys. The Terminator Genisys on Blu-ray runs at 23.976 frames per second. I expected MakeMKV to convert this at a frame rate of 29.97; however, that is not what happened. Make MKV converted Terminator Genisys at a rate of 23.976. The entire movie, including the scrolling credits, runs smoothly in both MPC-HC and VLC Media Player.

mike_mgoblue
Posts: 76
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 4:36 am

Re: Choppy Framerate from HD-DVD in MKV at 29.97fps

Post by mike_mgoblue » Sat Feb 23, 2019 11:39 am

Anyone out there listening? ... Help is appreciated.

I can tell you after 1.5 years of experience with MakeMKV it is a bit frustrating how DVDs such as the Roswell TV show have a framerate of 29.97, but look like they are "skipping" frames and "stuttering" frames.

Even when converted to Handbrake, Roswell continues to look that way.

But, the original DVDs when played in a DVD player did not produced this type of "skipped" frames or any type of "stuttered" frames.

Woodstock
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Re: Choppy Framerate from HD-DVD in MKV at 29.97fps

Post by Woodstock » Sat Feb 23, 2019 2:01 pm

Not many people here use HD-DVD any more. I've never had one.

As to frame rates - On DVDs (non-HD), there are multiple ways that the video can be put on the disk to meet the 29.97fps rate. Some are actually 23.97 with flags that tell the player to up-convert to NTSC or PAL frame rates. Some are already telecined to the 29.97 frame rate. And there is the occasionally disk that has both (these look really funky in handbrake is the log shows the decoder switching in and out of "film" mode).

I don't know who among the other users here is a "HD-DVD" expert that can give advice on this. If HD-DVD is as screwed up a specification as Bluray, it's amazing it works at all...
How to aid in finding the answer to your problem: https://www.makemkv.com/faq/item/8

Grauhaar
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Re: Choppy Framerate from HD-DVD in MKV at 29.97fps

Post by Grauhaar » Sat Feb 23, 2019 4:32 pm

Welcome in the world of Telecine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecine

This is a technic to view cinema movies in countries which are using the net frequency of 60Hz (59,94fps). To re-adjust the movie to 23,976fps some frames must be removed. For the net frequency of 50Hz the speed of the movie is increased by 4% from 23,976fps to 25fps and no double frames are included.

But anyway, MakeMKV does not "convert" the video content. The frame rate is stored as "viewing time per frame in nano seconds" in the header. I think it is a bug in MakeMKV (and many other tools) if this is calculated wrong for some movies. This can be changed with the MkvToolNIX header editor in the Video track field "Default duration". So mkvs created my MakeMKV should work with a changed duration setting, bceause the content is only copied from the disc and not converted.

23,976fps = 41.708.333ns (Typical Blu-ray - Progressive frames)
24fps = 41.666.666ns (Some Blu-rays - Progressive frames)
25fps = 40.000.000ns (Typical PAL 50Hz DVD - Interlaced frames. Also some Blu-rays with Progressive frames)
29,97fps = 33.366.665ns (Typical NTSC 60Hz DVD - Interlaced frames)
50fps = 20.000.000ns (Typical 50Hz TV - Progressive frames)

If have the NTSC DVD "The Hill" which is completly missinterpreted my Mediainfo. The infos says 23,97fps and progressive frames, pur nonsens. Handbrake/Vidcoder says 23,976fps, wrong. But VLC says 29,97fps which is correct. Other NTCS DVDs in my library are looking good with 29,97fps and interlaced. As you see, different tools, different results.

mike_mgoblue
Posts: 76
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 4:36 am

Re: Choppy Framerate from HD-DVD in MKV at 29.97fps

Post by mike_mgoblue » Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:16 am

Thank you for your help, both of you.

I have one quick question: Do you know of a "Player" software application I can install on my Windows 10 laptop that would allow me to use the HDMI output on the laptop to send the movies I watch to the TV at a framerate of either 23.976fps or 24fps in the same way that a normal Blu-ray Player app such as the one used on the Xbox One does?

I really like using MPC-BE, but it doesn't seem as though MPC-BE allows the HDMI out to send a signal the TV interprets as 1080p/24fps. It would be nice if there was some form of app that did allow this 1080p/24fps signal to be output to the TV via the HDMI signal.

d00zah
Posts: 465
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Re: Choppy Framerate from HD-DVD in MKV at 29.97fps

Post by d00zah » Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:59 am

mike_mgoblue wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:16 am
I really like using MPC-BE, but it doesn't seem as though MPC-BE allows the HDMI out to send a signal the TV interprets as 1080p/24fps. It would be nice if there was some form of app that did allow this 1080p/24fps signal to be output to the TV via the HDMI signal.
I use Shark007 std codecs along with his pre-configured MPC-BE/madVR (tools page) & it automatically switches my display (Samsung LED TV via HDMI) to whatever refresh rate (23.976/24fps) the video is encoded to. I'm unfamiliar with the options for the 'vanilla' MPC-BE, but madVR can be configured for the automatic rate switching (user defined resolution/rate).

Update: Just looked at the config options for 'vanila' MPC-BE. Under the Video > Fullcreen options, try checking:

- 'Use autochange fullscreen monitor mode'.

and the 3 sub-options. I believe it'll automatically switch display resolution/rate when you start/stop playback. Play around with these settings.

mike_mgoblue
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Re: Choppy Framerate from HD-DVD in MKV at 29.97fps

Post by mike_mgoblue » Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:31 am

Thank you for the suggestions. I did as you recommended and changed the settings you instructed. But, none of those changed the framerate of the HDMI out from MPC-BE to 24fps.

d00zah
Posts: 465
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2016 8:23 pm

Re: Choppy Framerate from HD-DVD in MKV at 29.97fps

Post by d00zah » Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:08 am

mike_mgoblue wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:31 am
Thank you for the suggestions. I did as you recommended and changed the settings you instructed. But, none of those changed the framerate of the HDMI out from MPC-BE to 24fps.
Works with madVR. MPC-BE outputs whatever the video contains... the display should switch to match the output. A couple of places you might try asking directly:

https://www.mpc-forums.com/
https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php? ... 0&page=306

mike_mgoblue
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Re: Choppy Framerate from HD-DVD in MKV at 29.97fps

Post by mike_mgoblue » Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:57 pm

Thank you. ... I am not sure what "MadVR" is. ... What will MadVR do to MPC-BE that will change MPC-BE in a way that causes MPC-BE to start outputting video at 24fps? ... The way things are now (apparently without MadVR) the HDMI Out on my laptop always sends a signal that the A/V Receiver displays as "1920x1080p @60hz" ... In comparison, the A/V Receiver displays "1920x1080p @24hz" when playing directly from the Blu-ray player.

d00zah
Posts: 465
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Re: Choppy Framerate from HD-DVD in MKV at 29.97fps

Post by d00zah » Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:20 pm

mike_mgoblue wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:57 pm
Thank you. ... I am not sure what "MadVR" is. ... What will MadVR do to MPC-BE that will change MPC-BE in a way that causes MPC-BE to start outputting video at 24fps? ... The way things are now (apparently without MadVR) the HDMI Out on my laptop always sends a signal that the A/V Receiver displays as "1920x1080p @60hz" ... In comparison, the A/V Receiver displays "1920x1080p @24hz" when playing directly from the Blu-ray player.
Could be a quirk with your laptop, or receiver? With the aforementioned FULLSCREEN settings, the HDMI output SHOULD be "1920x1080p @24hz". If 'windowed', the output would be your typical desktop res. ("1920x1080p @60hz"?). This is native MPC-BE functionality, if documentation is to be believed. If it doesn't work, the suggested MPC-BE support forums would be the place I'd go to ask 'why?'.

madVR is a "high quality DirectShow video renderer..." 'plugin' for most popular video players. Use it, or not, but it correctly adjusts the output (in my setup) as you desire.

mike_mgoblue
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Re: Choppy Framerate from HD-DVD in MKV at 29.97fps

Post by mike_mgoblue » Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:28 pm

d00zah, it sounds like you know what you are talking about regarding technical things. I have another question for you.

I recently ripped Creed 2 using MakeMKV. ... While watching Creed 2 on Blu-ray, the Dolby TrueHD sound was fine. ... And when I listened to the Dolby True HD on the two speakers of the laptop with MPC-BE everything was fine. ... But, when that same Dolby True HD sound format was selected when using MPC-BE while using the HDMI Out on the laptop, there were a countless number of problems with the audio. The audio would completely "stop" many times. When I switched the audio format to DTS Master Audio the audio was fine and did not have this problem. ... Something very similar happened with the movie The Nun. ... Is there any reason why?

d00zah
Posts: 465
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Re: Choppy Framerate from HD-DVD in MKV at 29.97fps

Post by d00zah » Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:53 pm

mike_mgoblue wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:28 pm
d00zah, it sounds like you know what you are talking about regarding technical things. I have another question for you.

I recently ripped Creed 2 using MakeMKV. ... While watching Creed 2 on Blu-ray, the Dolby TrueHD sound was fine. ... And when I listened to the Dolby True HD on the two speakers of the laptop with MPC-BE everything was fine. ... But, when that same Dolby True HD sound format was selected when using MPC-BE while using the HDMI Out on the laptop, there were a countless number of problems with the audio. The audio would completely "stop" many times. When I switched the audio format to DTS Master Audio the audio was fine and did not have this problem. ... Something very similar happened with the movie The Nun. ... Is there any reason why?
Less 'what I know' & more what I can find by consulting the great oracle, GOOGLE. But, thanks... :)

Don't know your particular setup, or 'plain' MPC-BE, but these are things I would look at:

- Laptop graphics drivers up-to-date? Properly configured?
- MPC-BE up-to-date? Properly configured?
- Codecs (A/V decoders, if external to MPC-BE) up-to-date? Properly configured?

These things have nothing to do with MakeMKV. Not trying to brush you off, but the MPC-BE forums I suggested (from a quick 'google') remain the best place I can think of to ask these player-specific questions.

mike_mgoblue
Posts: 76
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 4:36 am

Re: Choppy Framerate from HD-DVD in MKV at 29.97fps

Post by mike_mgoblue » Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:18 am

d00zah, I think you are correct that the problem may be with MPC-BE. ... In the past this was difficult to confirm because no other players I have can play MKV files.

However, today I downloaded VLC just to see what would happen. VLC "plays" MKV files and they look "choppy," so that is why I didn't have VLC on the computer anymore. ... Anyways, just as a test I played Creed 2 in order to test the Dolby True HD audio. ... When played on VLC Media Player the Dolby True HD sound did NOT have these "dropouts" in the audio! ... This makes me think you are definitely correct the problem is with the MPC-BE player. ... I just don't understand why some movies can use Dolby True HD fine with MPC-BE, but others such as Creed 2 and The Nun have a hard time with "dropouts."

Any chance you know of a "Player" that is actually reliable, even if it might cost a little bit of money?

I appreciate your help.

d00zah
Posts: 465
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2016 8:23 pm

Re: Choppy Framerate from HD-DVD in MKV at 29.97fps

Post by d00zah » Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:51 am

mike_mgoblue wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:18 am
Any chance you know of a "Player" that is actually reliable, even if it might cost a little bit of money?
You are already using my preferred player which, in my experience, plays everything. THAT's why I'm trying to push you towards a community that deals with it specifically. The player itself is solid, but has poor documentation & beau coup config options. An MPC-BE forum will likely have 'experts' & users with similar problems/solutions. If you want something 'easy', I'm afraid I have nothing to suggest.

As I mentioned earlier, I use the Shark007 std codecs/MPC-BE/madVR. I plays everything I've asked it to AND he has a support forum if'n you get stumped.

mike_mgoblue
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Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 4:36 am

Re: Choppy Framerate from HD-DVD in MKV at 29.97fps

Post by mike_mgoblue » Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:38 am

Hi, d00zah.

Thank you for the advice. I am trying to download the Shark007 via the link you placed here. ... The problem is, I have no idea how. The entire website for Shark 007 is a group of advertisements - all of them say things such as "Download Here" and "Start Process Here" but they are nothing more than advertisements that look like spam. The website says "Not Secure," so I'm not sure if I should click on those ads. ... Do you have a link to a Page for Shark 007 that actually lets people download the 64-bit version without all those "ads" that are so confusing?

Thank you.

Also, do you have a link that is good for the MadVR software you are referring to?

Thanks again.

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